A mí me parece un sapiens normal y corriente, con rasgos que aún hoy existen en muy lejanas regiones del mundo. Las pruebas de hibridación me parecen flojísimas. Pero quién soy yo para contradecir a Erik Trinkaus...

No, amigo. No lo has "Trincao" (perdona el mal chiste, Erik)

Hoy Sampedro reseña en el pais un artículo interesante que parece apoyar via genética molecular la tesis del cacareado cruzamiento (http://www.elpais.es/articulo/sociedad/gen/clave/nos/paso/neandertal/elpporsoc/20061108elpepisoc_9/Tes/). Leyendo el abstract del artículo en cuestión, parece que es, como mínimo, una conclusión atrevida. Pero no es mi campo.

Hola,

Me podría alguien explicar porqué existe gente tan reticente a creerse una posible hibridación entre neandertales y sapiens y otros tan proclibes a creerlo? Por ahora, la unica relación que he encontrado es que mayoritariamente los primeros tb suelen ser los mas prodarwinistas y los segundos los mas anti-darwinistas. Tiene esto alguna base o es solo casualidad?
(he pegao lo mismo en paleofreak, pero es porque me interesa saber si es que no entiendo este debate)

Sí que hay bastante prejuicio empañando el debate, sí, pero no creo que haya nadie anti-darwinista participando en él. Supongo que sí podemos ver algo en plan gradualismo vs puntuacionismo, evolución lenta vs evolución rápida, pero lo cierto es que tampoco es cosa de blanco o negro. Yo, por ejemplo, cada vez soy más gris. Si un antropólogo cogiese los huesos del boxeador ese, no creo que llegase a decir que se trata de un neanderthal, pero sí que podría pensar en un híbrido, o un sapiens arcaico. En realidad el tamaño le daría una pista señalando hacia un caso de gigantismo, pero eso sólo puede saberse a posteriori, teniendo varios ejemplares y por tanto infiriendo cuál es la norma y cuánto es el rango de variación. Con los fósiles de verdad esto no es tan fácil y por eso las controversias son más complicadas.

Bio, creo que el título que has puesto no es muy correcto. Independientemente de que fuesen una especie distinta de la nuestra o no, creo que nadie duda de que los neandertales eran tan humanos como nosotros. ¿No?

Paleo: me parece que el moño occipital de la fotografía no es frecuente en ninguna población moderna.

¿No es verdad acaso, que tras lo que se va sabiendo sobre el genoma de los Neandertales es bastante improbable su hibridación con sapiens, ya que parece ser bastante diferente al genoma de estos?

Txema M, el moño occipital, según leo por ahí, tiene cierta frecuencia en bosquimanos, aborígenes australianos, lapones, ingleses del norte y otros europeos. También aparecía en los nubios del mesolítico y en la momia de Ramsés IV... ;o)

Bueno, sí, normalmente yo llamo humanos a todos los Homo, pero en este caso el título está así por polemizar.

Amalio, por lo que se sabe, no es que no pudiesen hibridar, es que simplemente los genes neanderthales que se conocen no han pasado al acervo genético de los sapiens modernos. Que es algo bastante distinto...

Amalio,
Sí, es verdad

Sí, según parece el moño occipital se da en todas esas poblaciones. No lo sabía. La única persona que he podido observar de uno de esos pueblos es una chavala de Newcastle que tuvimos en casa, pero tenía melena, así que no ví nada...

He visto la foto de la momia de Ramsés IV y sólo veo un cogote redondeado, muy resaltado por la delgadez del cuello (el pobre hombre no es más que piel y huesos...) No sé si eso puede llamarse "moño occipital", comparándolo con el que aparece en la foto de arriba.

Pon "occipital bun" en Google (imágenes). Sale el moño de Ramsés y otro de una famosa dama momificada.

¡Coño! ¡Pues sí que es un moño!

Por lo que he podido entender de esta noticia, el cruce hubiese influido marcadamente en la capacidad intelectual de la descendencia. Como me gusta creer que la capacidad intelectual está esparcida de una manera muy regular por todas las comunidades de la Tierra esto llevaria a pensar que TODOS los humanos actuales son descendientes de estos cruces y no quedan conquistadores africanos puros ya que el Cro-magnon seria un hijo del cruce. ¿O es que hay realmente gente más "inteligente" que otra por estirpe?
Saludos.

No hay ninguna evidencia (de momento) de que ese gen aumente la capacidad intelectual del portador. No se sabe cual es su efecto.

"Yo, por ejemplo, cada vez soy más gris."

Ya, BioMaxi, es que hay que intentar salir del laboratorio de vez en cuando .oP

Hombre Paleo, a nivel individual sí que existen evidencias. Si no leí mal, mutaciones en ese gen provocan retraso mental.

Eso es el efecto de ciertas mutaciones en el gen. No permite deducir el efecto de otras variantes distintas.

Correcto. Luego evidencias (aunque sean débiles o insuficientes) sí que hay, ¿no? :) No me hagas mucho caso, que hoy ha sido un día largo.

No :o)

Tengo que echarle un ojo a eso de la introgresión... cuando no esté tan dormido...

Os he estado leyendo. Me gustaría saber si sóis partidarios de la teoría de la evolución, de la separación iglesia-estado y del sexo prematrimonial. Un saludo.

Totalmente, lucy. ¿Cuál es tu número?

Yo soy, además, partidario de la teoría de la gravitación, de la separación culo-témporas y del sexo post-matrimonial.

Ya que otros se han adelantado a coger el sexo pre y post, me quedo con el matrimonial. Me apresuro antes de que lo coja otro y no me quede más que el sexo con una rana.

ja, ja, gracias chicos.
me da miedo el imparante ascenso del creacionismo, yo creo q si vamos a enseñarlo como una alternativa a la teoría de la evolución, también deberíamos enseñar la teoría de la cigüeña como alternativa a la reproducción biológica...
yo creo q soy partidaria del sexo pro-matrimonial.
un beso.

biomaxi: estás seguro de q quieres mi número? te aviso q los psicólogos y antropólogos no estamos muy bien de la cabeza.

No tiene que ver con el tema de este topic, pero no sé dónde preguntarlo.
He leído esto que dice Mario Bunge aquí sobre Dawkins y Dennet:

"- Bueno, ahora que habla de comerse a los curas, ¿qué le parece la cruzada de Dawkins y Dennet contra Dios?

- Bueno, me parece muy bien. Empezó en el siglo XVIII. Lo malo es que ninguno de esos dos propone ciencia auténtica. Toda la genética que usa Dawkins la inventó él. No existe, nada más que en su imaginación."

Mi pregunta es ¿es eso cierto? ¿no hay ninguna clase de apoyo empírico a la genética de Dawkins? Perdonen si pregunto una burrada en este antro de sabios ;-), pero de la duda procede el conocimiento...

Saludos y gracias

"

Me gustaría recomendaros una web: www.opuslibros.org. Es una web sobre ex miembros del Opus Dei, perdonas muy valientes q recuperaron la cordura y la consiguieron salir de la secta. En la web cuenta toda la verdad sobre lo q es el OD. Es una web muy valiosa. Distinos grupos de extrema derecha están cortando el acceso a esta web para q no se sepa la verdad de lo q pasa en la secta. Me parece muy importante hacer un esfuerzo entre todos x mantenerla viva xq el OD hace muchísimo daño. Muchas gracias.

Teresa,
aunque don Mario me suele caer muy bien, ahí peca de lo mismo que han pecado todos los filósofos de la ciencia que han salido de físicas: subestimar la biología, pensar que la pueden entender sin haberla estudiado. Al decir eso ha demostrado que no ha leído a Dawkins porque, simplemente, Dawkins precisamente no propone ninguna "genética nueva". Y cuando se refiere a teorías o fórmulas sobre genética de poblaciones siempre lo hace citando a los autores originales. Dawkins no ha inventado nada, su labor es la del divulgador. Me parece curioso que esta "crítica" venga de Bunge, que dejó la investigación en física para pasarse a la filosofía y la divulgación él mismo. Vamos, que fácilmente Dawkins podría replicarle "a mí lo que diga Bunge me da igual, total él no está proponiendo ciencia auténtica"...

Y en segundo lugar, el gen egoísta no tiene nada que ver con la campaña antirreligiosa de Dawkins. Pero que nada que ver.

En mi opinión Dawkins no se ha inventado una genética, sino que interpreta y explica una genética estándar de un modo no estándar, adaptada a su forma particular, genocéntrica, de entender la evolución.

Coincido con Maxi en que el comentario acerca de la "cruzada" ha sido aprovechado por Bunge para emitir una opinión acerca de Dawkins y Dennet que no venía a cuento. Bunge aquí se ha pasao un par de pueblos. Dawkins es un etólogo metido a divulgador y Dennet un filósofo profesional. No tiene sentido decir que hacen "ciencia auténtica". El mismo Bunge es un profesor de física metido a filósofo del que no se sabe que haya hecho ninguna contribución "auténtica" a la ciencia aparte de "filosofar" sobre ella (Y digo eso a pesar de que le admiro como filósofo). De los tres el único que ha sido al menos durante algún tiempo un científico "auténtico" es, precisamente, Dawkins.

Bunge ha escrito un libro, "Fundamentos de la biofilosofía" que ha pasado desapercibido en España. Al menos nadie ha hablado de él hasta ahora. A tenor de algunas de sus declaraciones podría ser interesante echarle un vistazo ;).

Ah, me olvidaba: un comentario del libro (con algunos errores semánticos, sorry):
http://www.fcen.uba.ar/prensa/LyR/index.php?id=19

yo creo que es un mono muy bueno

yo creo que es un mono muy bueno

Muchas gracias, BioMaxi, Paleo y Xac. La verdad es que me sorprendió su afirmación y, antes de tragarmela por haberla emitido una autoridad como Bunge, a quien yo también admiro, preferí contrastarla.
Me ha interesado mucho lo que señalas, BioMaxi, del sesgo fisicista de Bunge y otros filósofos de la ciencia. Creo que es una herencia del neo-positivismo vienés.

Gracias por la referencia del libro, Xac. No me había enterado de su existencia. Lo buscaré

Teresa, Dawkins es un divulgador nato. Si no me equivoco, no tiene nada publicado como investigador (corríjanme). Por tanto, "su genética" no es suya, sino de otros.

Sí, pero divulga sus ideas particulares, que no siempre coinciden con la corriente principal en la genética evolutiva. Eso no hay que olvidarlo. Muchos a quienes consideramos "divulgadores de la ciencia" son ensayistas que proponen tesis particulares, a veces marginales, y en ocasiones el lector no distingue entre lo que propone el autor y lo que se utiliza mayoritariamente en esa disciplina.

Dawkins es Doctor aunque en Filosofía. Y saber que los tres son filósofos puede que explique bastante acerca del exhabrupto de Bunge. Pero también es etólogo o sea que algo habrá hecho antes de dedicarse por entero a la enseñanza y a la divulgación. Y efectivamente: alguien cuyo nick es Pedro dijo en este mismo blog que tras buscar en PubMed artículos científicos publicados por R. Dawkins sólo encontró 7, todos de los años 70. PubMed no incluye posibles trabajos en su otra especialidad (filosofía) pero al parecer, después del éxito de "El Gen Egoista" (1976) decidió dedicarse a algo que era evidentemente mas divertido... y lucrativo, supongo.

Lo que no invalida mi afirmación de que de los tres filósofos (Dawkins, Dennet, Bunge) el único que se había dedicado al menos por un (pequeño lapso de) tiempo a currarse la ciencia era Dawkins.

Dawkins me parece fisicalista en su reduccionismo. Reduce a la biología al seguimiento de moléculas: todo ha sido la seleccion de segmentos de ADN. Las moléculas, en un dominio físicoquimico, son las verdaderas protagonistas de la evolución.
Fue Hamilton quien propuso que la seleccion de un gen podía ser más importante que la seleccion del organismo, que podía producir altruismo al nivel organísmico como un verdadero epifenómeno o sombra de un proceso auténticamente "egoísta" de selección genética. La idea es extendida por Dawkins a todos los fenómenos evolutivos.
El énfasis general en los genes "a la Dawkins" ha sido criticado por grandes como Mayr, Gould y Lewontin. Bunge acierta, Dawkins es una vision casi literaria, muy distante de lo formal.

Clastito: Por supuesto que Dawkins es discutible. Y Dennet. Y Bunge. Y Mayr. Y todo el que tiene algo que decir, porque el que tiene boca alguna vez caga. No era eso lo que yo criticaba sino la sorprendente respuesta de Bunge que me parece que no venía a cuento. Claro que también hay que pensar que se trataba de una frase sacada del contexto y quizas el resto de la entrevista justificase tal salida de tono. Eso ya no puedo decirlo.

Y lo que no puede negarse es que buena parte de las teorías de Dawkins poseen cierta base. Aunque la base la hayan elaborado otros y aunque muchas de sus extrapolaciones sean meras especulaciones.

Xac: Según tengo entendido, Dawkins se doctoró en zoología en Oxford. La confusión viene del título PhD (Doctor of Philosophy), que en varios paises anglosajones se utiliza para este grado académico, independientemente de los estudios que se cursen. Lo explican mejor en wikipedia, por ejemplo.

Hablando de neandertales, me he tirado un par de horas en google intentando dar con una imagen del famoso neandertal con traje y corbata que pasaría desapercibido en el metro. Creo que en el museo de Düselldorf existe una figura vestida así, pero no logro encontrar nada... ¿Alguien la conoce, o sabe de alguna reconstrucción parecida?

Un saludo.

Las mulas, vastagos de caballo y burro, son esteriles.

La idea de que una "simia" parió a una humana y a partir de ahí descendemos todos es muy atractiva para nuestra visión del mundo, pero totalmente absurda para cualquiera que tenga un pensamiento objetivo. Pero, claro, la idea de que somos la creación de Dios sigue en el fondo de nosotros y nos resistimos a destruirla.

#32:

Xac, Bunge ha hecho varias contribuciones "auténticas" a la ciencia.

En 1952, bajo la supervisión del físico austroitaliano, publica la tesis que le vale el doctorado, sobre “Cinemática del Electrón Relativista”. 49 años después, en 2003, Bunge publicó en International Journal of Theoretical Physics un artículo en el que propone nuevas coordenadas para los electrones. El pretexto fue demostrar matemáticamente, a partir de Mecánica Cuántica Relativista, por primera vez, la relación de varianza de Heisenberg para energía-tiempo.

También publicó una teoría matemática de las unidades y de las dimensiones de las magnitudes físicas.

Perdón... el físico austroitaliano era Guido Beck, presentado a Bunge por su profesor, el físico y novelista Ernesto Sábato.

Yo creo que pudo haber una hibridacion entre sapiens y neandertales pero hubieron pocos casos y seguramente serian esteriles.

con respecto a si somos hibridos o no hay muchas hipótesis pero me gusto mas la de un documental q dice q descendemos de la cruza de los atlantes y la de los cro-magnon o los cabernicos desaparecidos, q descendemos del mono noooooooooo es una mentira .. q los huesos q darwin q la seleccion natural . por favor dejen de mentir y ponele q si q los huesos y darwin y todo lo demas y q me dicen de herramientas q se han encontrado de mas de 80mil años o 150 mil años hay q enterrar a darwin junto con su seleccion natural y la concha de su madre viejo boludo

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